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Author Topic: Dictionary of Blues Terminology  (Read 30978 times)
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Don Gaynor
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« on: September 10, 2004, 10:09:05 AM »

Another unintended offense.

Silence is much safer!

Don Gaynor
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Mac
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2004, 04:02:12 PM »

Ouch.  Another source of disinformation?  You be the judge, this guy doesn't know the difference between "Honeydipper" and "Honeydripper among other notable things.  The former cleaned outhouses for a living.  

The def of "Backdoor Man" is laughable but at least safer for the children to know.  

The Blues is not the slang terminology used anyway.  

I've done some kindergarten thru around 8th grade Eurythmics classes where the fundamental of the Pentatonic scale was shown, instruments with only five possible notes were passed around, Kalimbas and whatnot along with various handheld rhythm instruments and the students were encouraged to create their own Gospel/Blues music on the spot.  This goes over BIG with any age grooup.  

He would do far better to explain the fundamental blue notes, b7 and ambiguous third and how they were derived from the field holler and the natural hearing of the overtones, the RHYTHMs inherent in the blues feel and things like that.  

Silly stuff.  

The Dean of the Dept. of African American Music is...  

A 26 year old white woman from the suburbs.  


ROFLOL



--Mac


(yeah, I know Don said "just for fun", because he realizes it is "just for fun", uh-huh.)
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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2004, 09:09:12 PM »

Again it is my fault that someone else "didn't know the gun was loaded".  


Well, I've looked the other way, ignored, did everything possible to not confront on the issue for more than 40 years now to no avail, may as well speak my mind on these issues, as they do bother me quite frankly.  


If the fact that they bother me bothers you, don't blame me for that.  


--Mac

 
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cvrjasonguitar
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2004, 06:56:14 AM »

People always seem to be talking about how dirty the new music is. I find this funny listening to a lot of these old blues songs.

"Ride My Pony. Saddle Up My Black Mare."

I mean come on. The implication is very clear. And what exactly is a "Little Red Rooster" anyway. Or as Mac pointed out a "Back Door Man".

The arrogance of the Sex, Drugs And Rock and Roll crowd is funny. Sex and drugs have been a part of music the whole way. Several Jazz musicians had affairs with wealthy white women. And lord knows how many of them used Heroin.

Heck, it was Robert Johnson that said that the devil taught him how to play guitar. One of many I think.

Their is nothing new. I guess that's the gist of what I am saying. Their is always something that pre-dates what exists in present. You just have to know how to find it.

"I give my baby and brand new 20 dollar bill, if that don't bring her back, I'm sure this shotgun will."
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2004, 03:19:38 PM »

Right on, Jason.  

The old original blues men KNEW there was a God, knew there was a devil and made their choices.  That is openly apparent even in the lyrics of what they sung if one cannot or will not take advantage of the written histories and biographies.  

There was also a distinct cleverness in the wordings as you point out that is delightful.  Even though they were proponents or perhaps even victims of a lifestyle not approved by others within the society there was a definite knowledge of the absolute truth contained within their combined viewpoints which is part and parcel of the genre IMO.  

It should also be stated that these musicians were the minority within a minority.  It really saddens my heart that many know the names and works of that minority of black bluesmen and women but few know the names of literally thousands of other people of color who contributed so much more in so many other genres throughout the same time period.  

There is much more to music than just the "angst" part of the equation.  


--Mac
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2004, 10:05:34 PM »

Quote
.....
It really saddens my heart that many know the names and works of that minority of black bluesmen and women but few know the names of literally thousands of other people of color who contributed so much more in so many other genres throughout the same time period.  

There is much more to music than just the "angst" part of the equation.  


--Mac

I do get rather tired of everyone acting like Robert Johnson invented the blues, but Mac - it's not apparent to me what u are saying here.

Are you speaking of talents like, say  Andy Razaf the great lyricist, and composer/performer/allround genius Fats Waller and others in the musical world?

Or are you speaking  more broadly to include ther fileds, such as writer Langsston Hughes?
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2004, 11:04:21 PM »

When I read Miles biography, it talked about how Tommy Dorsey was chosen as the best Trumpet player in some Jazz Poll over Miles and Dizzy Gillespie. Miles states that even Tommy Dorsey knew that he didn't have the same level of talent as Miles. Tommy Dorsey was white, chosen by whites.

I guess the problem is that Whites control/ controlled the music industry. And a large percentage of music buyers are still probably White males. Let's face it, there is still a gap. I've seen the census numbers even as late as the 90's the average African American family made significantly less money than the average white family.

It's hard to buy records, when you've got to put food on the table. It seems to be a shame though. The truly legitimate contributions to music by African Americans is mind boggling.

It's interesting that it seems like it takes a white reviewer to bring "legitimacy" to a black performer. Let's face we still have a long way to go. The good news is that we seem to be headed in the right direction, the bad news is that being people, it's gonna take a damn long time to get there!!

Miles, in his biography, talked about how in Europe he was revered. Treated like a national treasure. A common theme for a lot of British Blues musicians of the 60's was that they were shocked at how under appreciated many of the blues greats like Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf were in the United States. Maybe we in the US are a bit behind.

Thinking your the best often leads to stagnation. One has to look no farther than the Romans, The Chinese and Early Muslims to see that. Anyway, I appreciate good music no matter what color the guy is who plays it!! And that is the important thing!!

I know that I am dealing with a somewhat controversial topic here. And it is not my intention to insult or enrage anyone. If I have done so I apologize. My statements are based on a few observations that I have made. But, it doesn't mean that I am right. Hell, most of the time I'm not.

Have a good one boys and girls!!

 AudioMinds Rocks!  
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2004, 11:26:07 PM »

just the music field for me.  

off the top o' the head as fast as I can think:  (no particular order)

Pops Armstrong, Lil Harding, Jack Teagarten, Ella Fitzgerald, Edward Kennedy  (Duke) Ellington, Count Basie, Oscar Peterson, Nathaniel Cole, Ray Charles, Charlie Parker, Snookie Young, Clark Terry, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles, Thelonius Monk, Lawrence Mellon Jr., Patricia Prattis, Sydney Bechet, Sonny Stitt, Jimmy Smith, Jimmy McGriff, Jack McDuff, McCoy Tyner, Art Tatum (!), Marion Anderson, Leontyne Price, Kathleen Battle, Jessye Norman, the entire two generations of the Marsalis family, Roland Hayes, Dorothy Maynor, Mahalia Jackson, Paul Robeson, Harry Thacker Burleigh, William Dawson, William Warfield, Andre Crouch, James P. Johnson, Scott Joplin, Jelly Roll Morton, Professor Longhair, King Oliver, Fats Waller, Charlie Christian, Roy Eldridge, Lionel Hampton, Coleman Hawkins, Earl Hines, Fletcher Henderson, Teddy Wilson, Albert Ammons, Pete Johnson, Meade Lux Lewis,  Pinetop Smith, Harry Belafonte, Billie Holiday, Lena Horne, Sarah Vaughan, Eartha Kitt, Dinah Washington, Pearl Bailey, Quincy Jones, Sonny Rollins, John A. Lewis, Charles Mingus, Ornette Coleman, Cannonball Adderly, John Coltrane, George Benson, Herbie Hancock, George Russell, Cecil Taylor, Art Blakey, Lester Willis Young, Horace Silver, Clifford Brown, Max Roach, Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, Anthony Davis, William Dawson, Mercer Ellington, Ulysses Kay, Jose Nunes-Garcia, Walter Robinson, William Grant Still, Howard Swanson, Florene Beatrice Price, Ludovic Lamothe, Samuel Ekpe Akpabot, Harold A. Blanchard, Eleanor Alberga, Thomas "Blind Tom" Wiggins, Florence Beatrice Smith Price, Leo Brouwer, Louis Jordan, Wes Montgomery, Monk Montgomery, Freddie Green, Grant Green, Bolo Sete, James Marshall Hendrix, Stanley Jordan, James Brown, young Jordan Adams -- started piano at age of 3 and at age of five was playing world class classical piano, he should be around 8 now, this is not an autistic child act either, this young man is a real live supergenius.  link to jordan story


Okay, mind is fried, the above represents about three or four minutes in realtime, needless to say there is a much longer list of the missed examples.  looking only for the movers and shakers as it were, note the many classical field entries here, too.  


dig.


--Mac




















 
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2004, 11:55:35 PM »

Everybody knows that "Jelly Roll" Morton invented Jazz and the text books say the W.C. Handy invented the Blues. Now, I can more believe Jelly Roll's claim, but the text books?

Robert Johnson was a student. In a way, he was an anomaly for the Delta. He represented a hybred between what local musicians were playing and what was popular on the jukebox. The line out of the Delta was forefathers->Charley Patton->Son House->Howlin' Wolf->etc.

You want to know who invented the blues? It was the Dutch. Man, wearing them wooden shoes and being surrounded by tulips would give anyone the blues!  Tongue

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« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2004, 01:22:02 AM »

Quote
Everybody knows that "Jelly Roll" Morton invented Jazz and the text books say the W.C. Handy invented the Blues. Now, I can more believe Jelly Roll's claim, but the text books?

.....

You want to know who invented the blues? It was the Dutch. Man, wearing them wooden shoes and being surrounded by tulips would give anyone the blues!  Tongue

Cyprian
Cyp -

As far as the Dutch inventing the blues, of COURSE they did. You'd get the blues if you were crazy enough to build below sea level.  (Hmmmm come to think of it they did in New Orleans too).

And as far as jazz is concerned, Morton is really out of the picture - it is a known fact that the Norwegians in Minnesota invented jazz and sent it down the Miss river to Buddy Bolden for him to record and then hold a Cylinder release party. :roll:

=====

Being serious now, well Jelly was no doubt a braggart, but in some sense I think he did invent jazz, in that he was definitely a big part of the bridge between ragtime and jazz, and he was the first to REALLY orchestrate Jazz (check out his URL=http://redhotjazz.com/redhot.html]Red Hot Pepper Recordings[/URL]) from 1926. The Chant is a very good example of his orchestration with room for improvisation.

BTW for anyone really interested in Jelly Roll Morton,  Mike Meddings has a WONDERFUL website on Morton. Losts of previously unpublished material.

Now W.C. Handy never claimed to be the originator of the blues. In my opinion, the "Father of The Blues" sobriquet he tolerated most likely because it was good for business.  And he was a businessman.

But in 1926/27 Handy published "Blues: An Anthology".  In it he CLEARLY stated his role as a collector of music.  It also has intereting notes on each tune, where he collected it, background of the song, etc.   It's a very interesting book if you can lay your hands on a copy - it was reprinted as recently as 1972 - that's where my copy is from.

Sheesh see what happens when you get me started on this stuff Cyp? Carrot  
BTW  I Agree!  w what you said about Robert Johnson.

Mac -
Pretty inclusive list there - specially for 4 minutes.
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2004, 06:26:20 AM »

Another thing that struck me as funny, after I started reading up on the blues. Is how the blues and country music share basically the same origin. Growth out of folk songs played at revival shows.

One NEVER hears about the Country/Blues connection.

Heck, to take a more modern example. Ask about the origin of Rock and Roll. Once again it is widely disputed as to when and where it started. Is Chuck Berry the sole originator of rock music?

Let's face it, a ton of people contribute to music. And their are a ton of people who do NOT get their due. There are an awful lot of talented people out there. But only a few are lucky enough to get into the spotlight. I just wish we had more music fans, instead of businessmen determining who does get to be in the spotlight.

That's all for now,

 Chicken
 
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2004, 06:44:31 AM »

Probably one of the reasons why the old blues performers get more credit, than their Jazz counterparts is the influence of all of those 60's British rock and rollers. They really championed the blues. Only a few of them championed Jazz.

I think it's a shame that while blues gets a heavy mark for influencing rock music. Jazz usually does not. Yet, in a lot of ways Jazz is at least as influential for rock as the blues is.

One of the few exceptions is Carlos Santana who sites people like Miles Davis and Tito Puente as his heroes. The Who mentioned that their song "Anway, Anyhow, Anywhere" was inspired by Charlie Parker. So it's out there a little bit anyway.

Most rock fans, myself included up until the last few years, have a bad tendency to not to look beyond rock music. This is a mistake. Every genre of music has it's value. The percentages my change from genre to genre (the crap vs. quality percentage).  Tongue But, their are worthwhile contributors in every genre.  

And yes, Mac. People tend to notice the dark side of things more than the light. It seems to be human nature. Actually, I find a lot of very uplifting songs in the blues too. And in a way, those darker blues songs help you deal with your misery because, you know that you are not alone.  

Ugghh.. I guess I had more to say than I thought.....

 Doh!
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2004, 02:34:23 PM »

The melting pot of the blues influence is a one-sided and warped issue.  

Hank Williams is a great example of a white singer/songwriter who borrowed heavily from the black blues influences.  He learned the blues from a local African-American street musician, Rufus Payne (also known as Teetot). Payne not only taught Hank how to play the guitar, but helped him overcome his innate shyness. The blues feel that suffuses much of Hank Williams' work is almost certainly Teetot's legacy.  

Hank Williams went on to fame and fortune.  How many actually even know of Teetot's existence?  

Surely people don't still believe that Elvis Presley actually was a real cowriter on all those hit records purportedly "wriitten by Elvis Presley and Otis Blackwell", do they?  Otis passed away in 2002, but not before he got the chance to tour and sing his songs.  He remarked that far too many people would tell him, "You sing just like Elvis" when the reality was that Elvis was singing just like Otis, who taught him how to do it.  Elvis also attended OUR church every Sunday for a long time, internalizing the black gospel sound.  When he learned about 50% of it, he was declared to be "The King" by the society.  I guess all those unheard of black cats he learned from must be Emporers or sumthin'...  

But perhaps the thing weighing heaviest on this writer's heart is the fact that even today the emphasis is on the earlier works of African American artists, stuff that is around a hundred years old with much emphasis placed on ignoring the magnitude of works done since that time and how far the envelope has been pushed.  At this rate it will be another hundred years before the majority American population catches up to being able to hear and appreciate the work of Charlie Parker.  And will still be one hundred years behind the developments at least.  

The idea that the apartheid of this country is now over is not based in a reality of fact at all, there are a LOT of people still alive who are life victims of the tragedy and in many respects the crap is still going on unchecked, the recording industry being but one example out of the pool of possibilities.  

Take the time to dig out the hidden, find the real music that isn't sold on the top shelves, the path less traveled, the different drum everybody talks of but apparently does not like to beat all that differently,  in short, it is my contention that the numerous complaints about the lackings in today's recordings being offered for the charts are as equally blamed on the purchasers as the purveyors.  

I challenge the American musicians posting on this forum to ask yourselves some questions and answer them honestly:  Are there any African Americans in your band?  Have there ever been any African Americans in your band?  When you go out and play the clubs, do you see African Americans in the audiences in more than just occasional single occurences?  How about in the church bands of those who do such?  

We are apparently becoming the "invisible man" in this society all over again as far as I can tell.  

At that point, Elvis and Hank had it better some 50 or 60 years ago.  Perhaps so did Teetot and Otis.  


--Mac
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2004, 09:26:14 PM »

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At this rate it will be another hundred years before the majority American population catches up to being able to hear and appreciate the work of Charlie Parker. And will still be one hundred years behind the developments at least.

That's totally true Mac. But, I think this is true of all truly innovative performers. The painful truth is a lot of the general population is not very well educated about music.

The real driving force behind Elvis in terms of sales was his image as much as it was his music. That's the real tragedy. Rock and roll has always been an image, as much as it has been a form of music.

This isn't to say that race probably didn't play a role in the white population choosing Elvis over his numerous black counterparts. Because, truthfully it did. We still do have a looong way to go.

Talent should be the means by which we judge our artists. But we all know that just isn't true. Music is an escape from reality. It's something that we project ourselves into. The image means as much to many as the music if not more. What does Britney Spears have beyond an appealing image?

I think this also is why Blues gets more recognition than Jazz. I think the blues image has more of a popular appeal too. A man with an acoustic guitar in a suit. That appeals to people. The loner, the vagabond, it's a mystique that people buy into. The idea of Robert Johnson selling his soul to the devil to learn how to play guitar is very appealing to people. It's the image that sells almost as much as the product.

In answer to your three questions. I currently don't have a band. I did have one band with one African American in it. And I virtually never have had African Americans in the audience when I perform. But, I live in Iowa where the vast majority of the population is white.

Anyway, I respect you Mac. And I enjoy talking with you. And once again, if I have insulted you in anyway it was entirely unintentional. Peace!!

 Mac Rocks
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2004, 10:04:59 PM »

Mac,

same with Pat Boone crooning Li'l Richards "Tutti Frutti" or Willie Dixon having to sue all those British Bands to get his rightful songwriting credits. Or, the Original Dixieland Jazz Band being recognized as the first recorded jazz artist just because their color got them in the door first.

I do see that race and class still put some on the back of the bus. I also see it as the responsibility of those that can see the problem to try and become the leaders to shake up that bus. I challenge those on this forum to start to think beyond the color and see the content.

Cyprian
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2004, 10:06:17 PM »

You haven't insulted me at all, Jason, because you haven't chosen to do so.  That should be obvious.  

Your insights bring me hope, actually.  

Quote
I think this also is why Blues gets more recognition than Jazz. I think the blues image has more of a popular appeal too. A man with an acoustic guitar in a suit. That appeals to people. The loner, the vagabond, it's a mystique that people buy into. The idea of Robert Johnson selling his soul to the devil to learn how to play guitar is very appealing to people. It's the image that sells almost as much as the product.

Undoubtably true.  

What gets me is the last sentence, though, not that Jason isn't well intentioned on the subject, for he obviously is.  

Robert Johnson himself certainly didn't see much in the way of record sales or recognition in his short and tragic life, did he?  

It could be said that this is true throughout history for just about all musical composers, though, the people take a long time to catch up to innovation.  

But here we are talking of Robert Johnson yet again.  Not to take away from his contribution, but my point is one of all those others who have come since Bobby, have composed and played some simply fantastic stuff that the public does not even get a fair chance at hearing unless they are like me and actively spend a lot of time searching it out.  Don't count on one public funded TV or radio station to keep you informed on it, either, although one can at least find a program or two dedicated to the music occasionally.  

Anybody here know who Harold A. Blanchard is?  (don't google first, be honest. )

Don't wait until he's dead to find out, you can enjoy it in the real, right now.  

FWIW, reading Jason's last post, I don't believe I've ever conciously heard a Celine Dion recording, couldn't pick her out of a lineup either.  Um, it is a she, right?  But I think I can safely predict that I will hear only Major and minor chords in her songs, never a diminshed or heaven forbid, an augmented change, and let's leave the extensions for later, suspend the occasional 4th only, all chord suspensions are out.  All compositions in common time.  "Half Music"


--Mac
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« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2004, 10:45:12 PM »

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Talent should be the means by which we judge our artists.

Artists yes, but people don't buy Brittany Spears records for music or art. Folks buy her records for entertainment. We as musicians need to have a clear line in our heads between music, art, and entertainment. When I was a kid, me and my buddies were entertained by watching the neighbor dogs hump each other. So much for integrity or any measure for quality in regards to entertainment. This sort of goes OT, but the distinction is there. I'll let you guys hash out the race and ethnic ins and outs of that. Though I will say, people eat what they are fed out there.  
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« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2004, 10:46:12 PM »

Why Robert Johnson? It started with the search to have him in the John Hammond's 1938 concert that took the music from blues/gospel to swing jazz. They would be where that Krupa solo for Swing Swing Swing/Christopher Columbus came from. Then that mid '80's "Crossroads" movie cemented the Robert Johnson mystique further. Heck, supernatural intervention is common to many musical traditions. But, ole Bob was a mystical figure to the white academics that weren't living in Mississippi down on those plantations.

You want a better representation of how America appreciates it's Blues artists? Check out Wim Wenders "Soul Of A Man". It shows how both Skip James and J.B. Lenior get appreciated by America.

As to recognizing new musical talent by color. Mac, I can't do it. I stopped awhile back. I know about musicians I like. Frankly, I never thought about your race until you mentioned it way back on the nTracks forum. To me, you were a competent and worthwhile contributor. I judge you on that. You are like the library at Alexandria. I use the same logic with the music.

Still from my knowledge bank, how many here know about Vernon Reid's new album on Steve Vai's label or James "Blood" Ulmer blues combinations or Alvin "Youngblood" Hart's continuation of the Delta heritage? I bet everybody knows about the record industries fight against file sharing, but how many know about early R&B artists fight with record companies to get their due royalties? In the word of Public Enemy, "Don't Believe The Hype!"

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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2004, 06:14:25 AM »

I totally agree with Mac that the blues is far more than just Robert Johnson. Heck, the other day I was listening to a CD I picked up at the library called Skip James the complete early recordings. "I'd rather be the devil, than be that woman's man." What a line.

Son House also, is amazing. I have a version of "Death Letter Blues" that he recorded in the 60's which just blows my mind. Also, the White Stripes have several prominent blues covers including "Death Letter Blues." The White Stripes is one modern band that does seem to acknowledge it's roots. One of only a few though.

I have given up on the vast majority of commercial music a long, long time ago. But, there are still relevant artisits creating good new music. It just requires a lot more vigilance on the part of the listener to find them. Thank goodness for resources like the internet.

There has always been a difference between music and popular music. I think the real proof of any artists legitimacy is his staying power. Whether it be my favorite motor city madman Iggy Pop or Charley Patton (whose influence is still carried over by hundreds of musicians today) including very indirectly Iggy Pop.

One thing that I have done is I have been very liberal about spreading the joy of music to my friends and family. My kid sister, age 11, says her favorite musician is currently David Bowie. That's a heck of a lot better, than the Backstreet Boys isn't it.

A lot of these kids just haven't heard the good stuff. Because, their isn't a lot fo repect out there for what has come before. It's all about the hot new artists, the upcoming releases and things like that. Their is a great deal of a lack of repsect for the history of music in the music industry.

Oldie stations are the biggest farce. They claim to play the "classics" and all they really do is recycle the pop hits of the past. I can't imagine how bands like Journey, Styx, Foreigner, and REO Speedwagon have all of the sudden become classic rock. This stuff was terrible the first time around.

Don't give up hope Mac. We just got to find a way to get this music to the younger generation. Because unfortunately the radio ain't gonna do it.      

Cyp pointed me in the direction of James "Blood" Ulmer and Alvin Youngblood Hart. These two guys are phenomenal. Hart's Big Mama's House album is a great modern revisit back to the Missippi Delta Blues. Well worth the 15 bucks. We just have to talk to each other.

I have another friend who has introduced me to the world of British Pop music. Bands like The Smiths, Oasis, Pulp, Radiohead and many others. Their actually is quite a bit of worthwhile tunesmithing in their too. So yes, I am currently listening to Blues and Britpop. Believe it or not, I see connections their too.

It's just a matter of having an open mind and being willing to explore.  
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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2004, 08:13:45 AM »

I picked up an interesting tidbit yesterday, on a mainstream radio news source.  Pete Seeger, at 85, is now actively involved in trying to collect royalties for people whose music inappropriately ended up in the "public domain".   One example is the writer of "The Lion Sleeps Tonight," written by Solomon Linda in South Africa.  Linda died with $25.00 in the bank, and Seeger recognizes his own role in this injustice.  Anyway, if anybody was wondering what Seeger was doing with his time these days...

Life isn't fair.  It never has been and it never will be.  My niece is learning that in a very small way this morning, serving a detention that directly resulted from the teacher's dropping the ball with a student who started in his very full, very tough class three days late.  There is more than enough arrogance, greed and plain old evil to deliberately or inadvertently exploit any among us who dare to be guileless or trusting.  It is up to the rest of us to cry out for those who might not have the ability to cry out for themselves.  It is plain old good verses evil, of course.  We become responsible to those we love, and we are commanded to love one another.  The decision to do this separates the warriors from the rest.  It isn't a matter of pride for heritage or revenge for past injustices - it is a matter of questioning what is TODAY and NOW, and being able to discern reality from the rest.  It isn't always easy, and it often involves trying to change long-held beliefs and social conventions that continue to perpetuate injustice.

Pete Seeger and I are assuredly on opposite poles in terms of many philosophical issues, but I have to admire a man who has tried to dedicate his voice to those who have not been heard - and now, in his late years, has the balls to admit that he was once one of those involved denying that voice to some.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 08:16:45 AM by pete » Logged
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